@D

Here is some more “FINANCIAL REALITY” from SUNY. Along with Cutting corners on education, SUNY wants to spend another $3,760,000 of taxpayer dollars for a parcel of property that is approximately 3.22 acres in Ronkonkoma for storage.

Storage or Education, my bet is that storage wins this one!

http://www.suny.edu/Board_of_Trustees/bot_docs/2010/november_17/StonyBrookPropertyAcquisition.pdf

@Save Southampton

I think the ambiguity surrounding “the System Administration,” is irrelevant. The point was that this issue was brought before SUNY officials in addition to Stanley before closing the campus.

Let me be clear before this sparks a new set of arguments:
I dont feel that the short notice given to SH students was fair at all, I believe they should have given you guys another semester (f10) at SH to keep working while you planned your transfer to SBU or elsewhere.

But I do feel that with the economic situation SUNY has placed in these past few years, SH should have been closed, and I dont think that suing or picketing or anything else short of massive endowment is going to reopen the campus.

I dont feel like suing is really helping anybody, its not helping the cause of holding them accountable, as you can see they remain fairly ambivalent towards it. In fact, I feel the law suits comes off as a selfish and misguided attempt by a minority of angry SH students to claim some benefit from the closing of their campus at a cost to the remaining 25k students here.

I feel like social action is a better approach to this, and for that to engage the students here, you need to find reasons for Stanley to be viewed as morally wrong, or inconsistent with the best interests of SBU.

Good luck, Id like to see something positive come from all this, but I regret to say its most likely not going to be you campus reopening.

To Southampton Parent:

How convenient for you to quote from Zimpher without including another quote that says “this action was concurred with by System Administration” which immediately came after that paragraph you quoted. If Zimpher and the SUNY System Administration had objections to the plan, they would have made it clear to Stanley at that time.

Again I asked about Thiele and LaValle’s accountability and you point back towards Stanley. The accountability of state officials is real and is conveniently being disregarded. But of course you can’t sue them. You need a villain. That scapegoat is Stanley.

What I would like to hold Stanley accountable to is his promise to keep the sustainability programs intact at the Main Campus. In this regard, you have my support.

But to keep the Southampton campus open just for the sake of having it open without the necessary money to PROPERLY run it is irresponsible to the academic mission of the university, and to the students themselves. Even if the campus remained open, sooner or later the budget cuts will take its toll — fewer courses, limited library resources, delayed campus maintenance, etc. All of these problems are already being faced at the Main Campus. The Southampton campus would have been especially worse off since it doesn’t enjoy the economies of scale of a larger campus.

The big picture is that the money situation is bleak. Cuts have to be made somewhere. University officials have to make decisions like this across the country, without being sued. It’s unfortunate that you have been grossly affected by such cuts. But the lawsuit will go nowhere.

TC:
I believe that my biggest issue with what you said is “the illegal closure of my college.” like it has been mentioned before here, this is not just YOUR college. South hampton was not a stand alone school, and was supported with money from SH, M, as well as SBU main campus students. That being said, in a good economic climate the school benefits from the SH campus because it provides a different atmosphere, and more room to have smaller classes etc. However economic times are rough, budgets effecting all programs here are being cut, certain majors on main campus are cut as well, and having a separate campus with a 20:1 student:prof ratio is not a burden the school can handle right now.

Stanley and the board may be discussing future options of the SH campus, and they very well should be. We still own the campus, and while it isn’t financially viable now, it probably will be again sometime soon.

I also, as a student who has double majored, transferred from a small college upstate, and has ben exposed to sustainability based courses before, highly suggest you browse the course listings under other majors. Many SH programs, including CES, have analogue courses on this campus. Business, eco, MASIC as well as the physical and life sciences offer many electives that may not mimic your old major exactly, but probably come pretty close. Chose the design your own major BachSci track, and you’ll be able to accomplish those goals.

In the meantime, unless your lawsuits are personal, and private suits agains the person and not the organization they represent, your seriously wasting everyones time, and a lot of student and tax payer dollars. It’s not productive, its not going to really benefit you in anyway, it’s not going to help you finish you old major, or let SH reopen anytime soon.

In fact many main campus students fear that these lawsuits are just a method of disgruntled SH students attempting to get undeserved cash back from the school. I dont see it that way because none of the cases seem to move in that direction. But financially speaking, the lawyers are taking from the tax payer, and student pocket on this one.

Please reconsider your plan of attack. Maybe try working with USG to stand agains stanley and the board alongside west campus students. Send a non-biased message against his actions, and form a better bond between the two campuses.

Thanks for the suggestions Anthony. Problem is I’m a junior+ and finished with all my DECs. I have only the rest of my major courses to take – I can’t transfer. I didn’t ask to be here, don’t want to be here but I’m stuck here. In the meantime, I’m supporting the lawsuit against the illegal closure of my college and the tremendous injustice that has been done to me and my classmates. I have also asked my home-turf local legislators to support the bill that would make Southampton a separate SUNY college. Ranting here won’t solve anything. Write a letter to your elected state officials.

Southampton Parent again says: “Stony Brook was sited for poor undergraduate education and too much emphasis on research. So President Shirley Strum Kenny made a deal to create a campus that was focused on education as a compromise to save Stony Brook University’s accreditation. That campus is the Southampton campus.”

The Middle States problem was resolved way before Southampton came into the picture. Stony Brook did not need Southampton to get accreditation. That’s just absurd.

President Kenny had a penchant for expansion, aided by Senator LaValle. You might be championing her idea for the Southampton Campus but you might find that the plan to acquire 200+ acres of neighboring property was through eminent domain, also aided by Senator LaValle, was not very popular.

The idea behind Southampton Campus was and continues to be laudable. In an ideal economic climate, it should be pursued. Yes, the State provided millions of dollars to purchase the campus. yes the State provided millions of dollars to renovate some of the buildings. But the State did NOT — I repeat, DID NOT — provide the necessary money to operate the fledgling campus. That is not the fault of President Stanley. In hindsight, the campus should never have been acquired if the operating money was not there. In plain terms, it was like buying a car without money for gas. The car shouldn’t have been bought in the first place.

I understand it must be a very difficult situation for you and your child. But to cast aspersions on the motives of the Stony Brook administration is unnecessary when the underlying problem is that the State failed to fund the Southampton campus. The decision definitely is not popular. But all this talk that Stanley must have ulterior motives behind closing the school is a load of crap. There was even a quote from Thiele that describes Stanley as Nixonian. If I were to pick between Stanley, a professional administrator, and Thiele, a politician running for reelection, on who is best suited to know how to run a university, I will definitely not pick Thiele.

Thiele and LaValle has been very crafty in putting all the blame on Stanley. But Thiele and LaValle, as lawmakers, should be questioned on why the money necessary to operate Southampton wasn’t provided. Why is Stony Brook’s budget continued to be cut? Operating a residential campus for 500 students is expensive and entails a lot of overhead per student.

Southampton campus may be the ideal environment for sustainability studies, but it’s not something Stony Brook can afford at the moment. Is it that hard to understand? There is no money. The idea of a small liberal arts campus on SUNY tuition without the necessary state support is simply, well, not sustainable.

There are bills in the NY Assembly to make Southampton campus independent of Stony Brook. I’d like to see that happen myself as it will force the State to provide separate and hopefully sufficient budget items for Southampton that will not be dependent on Stony Brook.
Instead of this unproductive lawsuit, I suggest you lobby Albany to fast-track this legislation. This I believe is the ideal solution.

Anthony, the Middle States Commission on Higher Education threatened to lift Stony Brook’s accreditation unless it paid far greater attention to teaching, as you will see documented below. No one is trying to insult you. Let me try to educate you. Stony Brook has a history of not treating undergraduate students very well.

I attended science lectures of 200+ in my day. It was very difficult to find the professor and not easy to understand the broken English of the graduate student supervising us in the labs. I went to a university with 40,000 students, so I know my way around a big school.

I suppose you don’t know that Stony Brook was in danger of losing their Middle States College Accreditation, which is needed for federal student loans. Stony Brook was sited for poor undergraduate education and too much emphasis on research. So President Shirley Strum Kenny made a deal to create a campus that was focused on education as a compromise to save Stony Brook University’s accreditation. That campus is the Southampton campus.

“In the 1960s, when Stony Brook was founded, the SUNY plan was for it to become a version here of institutions like the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor or University of Wisconsin at Madison. Instead, it became a school focused on research into hard sciences. As a reporter, I covered the early years of Stony Brook U. and witnessed a succession of physicists who became its president giving it this direction.

A big break occurred in 1994 when Dr. Shirley Strum Kenny, an English scholar and former president of Queens College, became president. She sought to change its culture, to humanize it and get the school focused far more on students. She had no choice. She related to me that the Middle States Commission on Higher Education threatened to lift Stony Brook’s accreditation unless it paid far greater attention to teaching.

In 2005, after Long Island University decided to close its Southampton College and a drive began, led by State Assemblyman Fred W. Thiele, Jr. and State Senator Kenneth LaValle, to have SUNY take over the campus and have it emphasize environmental studies, Dr. Kenny embraced the idea. She worked to make it a branch of Stony Brook.

But with Dr. Kenny’s retirement last year, Stony Brook again has a research scientist as president. “He is all about science and research,” said Mr. Thiele last week about Dr. Samuel Stanley, previously vice chancellor for research at Washington University. “Shirley’s broad view of what Stony Brook should be is no more.”

http://www.sireporter.com/news-articles/1665/1665-Closing-of-East-End-campus-a-symptom-of-Stony-Brooks-nuclear-ambitions%E2%80%A9.html

One University, Two Cultures

“However, across Nichols Road is the main Stony Brook campus. The university’s early presidents, physicists, focused on it becoming a research institution. Dr. Shirley Strum Kenny, who began in academia as an English professor, was president between 1994 and 2008 and endeavored to reform its undergraduate education. She told me the university was facing having the Middle States Association lift its accreditation if this wasn’t done. Dr. Kenny was succeeded by Dr. Samuel Stanley who is similar to the initial presidents.”

http://72.32.16.161/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:LowLevelEntityToPrint_SOUTHAMPTONM&Type=text/html&Locale=english-skin-custom&Path=SPM/2010/08/27&From=Archive&ID=Ar01300

My child received a $20,000 scholarship and was a Dean’s honor student, and you don’t get that from being uninvolved. My child was going to a very prestigious school in Washington DC before transferring to Southampton. One of her classmates declined admission to Yale to go to Southampton, so she did not feel so bad.

Stony Brook can never provide the learning environment for sustainability majors because it is not on the East End in a town that has a large emphasis on sustainability.

I lived in Three Villages for 18 years and there is not the same interest in the environment in that community, compared to the Town of Southampton. They are two very different campuses that provide very different experiences. Just like the students at the Southampton campus can make $15.00 an hour working a retail job, and that does not exist in the Three Village area.

You just can’t compare the two campus situation because each was built with a specific goal in mind for their respective populations.

Some of the majors created for the Southampton campus took 4 years to go through the process of approval and these majors are very unique. Not even Arizona State University, the model for Dr. Strum Kenny’s idea, has all the sustainability majors that were offered to the undergraduate students at the Southampton campus.

That is even more reason why the residential sustainability program should be restored. These are the students who will be employed after graduation, and will help detoxify our environment using the new federal regulations.

We need to manage our resources with less impact to the soil, water, and air.

I hope you understand now why Stony Brook University’s main campus is the wrong placement for the Sustainability majors. You should work for a better undergraduate education so that Stony Brook does not lose it’s Middle State Accreditation.

Good luck to you this semester.

I love some of these responses, and the hostility that so many people take to me questioning their goals. Im going to break down my opinions into a few short bits that may provide insight as to why I have an issue with this.

1. Southhampton parent: argues that the large class sizes prevent real education, and that the village of SH has more to offer, more profs know your names etc….

Id like to thank them for personally insulting me and anyone else that attends a D1 school’s science program. Classes are big, thats a fact of life here, but not an inhibitor of education. Someone, a PhD who Im leaving out of this, once told me that it shouldn’t matter where you are, a good student can get a world class education anywhere as long as they work at it. I transferred to SBU from a small (9000 student) campus in upstate NY. I understand the small town college feel and I have a great appreciation for how easy it is for a prof to know you there. However, what truly makes a student stand out, (and leads to a much better written letter of rec) is when a student takes on the initiative to have a prof know them in a class of 600. Its very possible and every professor can tell you that the students they know best are the ones that seek them after class or during office ours, that these tend to be the top students in the class, that its the dedicated few that make these large classes beneficial. The key is obviously getting involved, which is something that SBU excels at. There are significantly many more ways to meet and interact with peers, grad students, and professors in and outside of class, on any issue or idea you can think of here and its that kind of interaction that foster real learning.

I understand you’re a parent of a student at SH, maybe you should plead with them to be more involved, it looks a lot better to grad schools and jobs to see a student that can stand out here, versus one in a class of 20.

I agree that the class size can be intimidating, but typically its just general courses, and recitations for those courses are typically only 20 students or less. It doesnt get much smaller at Cornell/Columbia/Harvard etc. Concerning the general requirements anyway.

Also, keep in mind that many SH courses were part of west campus courses, often having to use video broadcasts and having much less access to course coordinators. BIO203 is an example of this with the two primary professors located at West campus, relying on the echo360 server to stream their lecture to SH kids. THAT is no way to learn.
The downtown area? Thats not the issue here, and theres Port Jeff, Smithtown, and Huntington not too far away here. Also a train into manhattan. But this is irrelevant, as they dont contribute much to the college atmosphere or academic lifestyle.

2. Save Southampton: argues that I’m missing the point, that the issue is Stanleys behavior and not the closing of the campus.

This is the same argument I hear every day, and I agree. The trustees and Stanley did not act according to the law, and they should have had more public forums before they closed or acted to close the campus.
However, the lawsuits are targeted at SUNY Stony Brook, and thus become an issue for the students and tax payers. Your not placing the blame where it belongs, your putting on the students, and the schools names. Sue Stanley and the trustees, not SBU. I do not like hearing about a campus torn asunder, when in reality many students don’t feel that way. The reality is that its individuals in the administration responsible for the issues at hand, and those individuals should personally be held responsible.

3.TC: argues he was not provided for at SBU and that he was held hostage.

Im truly sorry to hear that, Im not sure what type of program you were in, but there is still a sustainability studies program here (3rd floor PsyA). Additionally there exist concentrations within almost every major here that focus on the ethics, or practices geared toward the environment and the humanities. Chemistry has courses dedicated to clean energy, Engineering to sustainable development, Bio has eco/evo, Economics and other humanities offer courses as well.
I would suggest taking courses that apply to your studies here where available, and finishing out the remainder of you credits with DECs until you transfer to SUNY ESF or another “SH like,” program.
Theres no reason to claim you’re held hostage here, theres plenty to get done both within and in supplement to your major here. All schools are going to require some sort of DEC program, worst comes to worst, transfer out later while killing some credits on main campus.

And god forbid some of the students petition to start their majors here, most of those courses were interdepartmental and would make for a great program on west campus. Many professors are struck down by claims of limited interest when proposing new courses for a major. Maybe having SH students organize with west campus, could initiate the opening of new environmental/sustainability geared electives within majors for all students to take.

4.MA, see my response #2

5. Le, see #2

6. Hal:argues Im being ridiculous, compares what would happen if this were my situation.

First let me ask, do you know how ridiculous YOU sound?
You’re comparing two totally different scenarios. First, SBU and SH were under the same college administration, with many courses offered at both school BY THE SAME PROFS, under the same coordinators (gen chem, gen phys, bio201/2/3). Additionally both schools were research education centers focused in the sciences (environmental and sustainability sciences, versus traditional MAT/PHY/BIO/CHE).
Comparing moving students from one campus of a school to another where the resources are essentially the same as before, is completely dissimilar to moving a SBU Bio student to a Purchase arts conservatory (though they do have science programs there). Regardless, if that were to happen, instead of suing over and over again, I would continue to work on my studies, and factor the transition into my personal statement when I apply for a transfer/grad school/job.

Additionally, Ive already mentioned how a good student is capable of acquiring their educational goals regardless of their setting. I transferred from an upstate college not because of SBU’s science programs being able to offer me more, but for more personal reasons (the other campus was 6hrs away from home). I could have done just as well at the same interests in the small upstate liberal arts college I was attending, and I did. It doesn’t matter where you are, knowledge will never be just handed to you. At SH you may have had the program outlined for you, now you have the freedom to investigate your own method.

I may have suggested that the SH students should choose a different major, yes. And I do still feel that the majority of these hyper focused environmental studies will not prepare a student as well to enter a career in that field as a traditional science program with supplemented research, or electives would. Thats not to say that Coastal Environmental Studies wont prepare someone for a real working environment, I just feel that studying more generally, covering a wider range of topics in that field would better prepare a person for real life situations, and open more doors in their interests to them. For example the Coastal Environmental Studies major could instead study ecology, or MASIC and have more exposure to a wider set of information that can aid in handling real life problems.
The truth is the majority of jobs hire based on degree, and experience. While your major may provide you with experience in a select field within your courses, your CV will still say BS/BA, and a student with BS/BA designation with research/field/volunteer experience is considered a much better candidate. Many jobs do not consider your major, just your degree type, and experience. Hyper-focused programs like those at SH fail to expose students to a diverse set of experiences making them less beneficial to a resume. Though they do build great experience within a particular sub-field, but how many deep sea ecologist positions are there?

Make some calls, ask companies what they think. This has just been my experience.

Im not embarrassed by SH students, just the radical misguided few that seem to blame the school and not the people at fault. You can have the rooms, that was just a common complaint.

7. Elliot, Thank you! you saw a great point in all of this, it seems you”re the only one. “This “grudge” between former Southampton student and West campus students should turn to collaboration and then all would be happy.”

I agree, this must not be an easy transition, I understand many students from SH are struggling here for many reasons including the landscape and environment. I hope that will change when everyone finds a niche, theres a lot of good here. But I realize this place isn’t for everyone, it is very dreary. But this attitude may change if more collaboration was to occur between the students.
Enacting major change at this school could break down the traditional barriers that separate this industrial campus from a more pleasant environment. Now if only we can get the SH student to stop calling us west campus kids stuck up, socially ignorant, or worse. We’ll work on not calling you guys hippies… but the tye-dye and dreadlocks make that one hard.

Seriously though, I agree with you. We should turn this fight on the people, not the school, that hurt their students and tax payers repeatedly. Stop suing SUNY and start suing Stanley. Lets work on building that community you had at SH here at main campus. Lets work together to bring the programs you want here so more people could enjoy them. Theres a lot of good that can come from just sitting down and thinking about where the issues actually are.

I think Ive made my point somewhat clearer. I feel for the students that lost their predetermined program guides and the campus they loved so much. But I dont feel any sympathy for a student that lacks the motivation to develop their interests on their own when the resources to do so are all around them. Like I said twice already, a good student can get a world class education anywhere they are. A good student can stand out and make a professor know a great deal about them in a class of 600, a good student can make a mark on this campus.

Let the flow of angry responses commence 😀

I applied to both SBU and SBS…even though I got into both, I loved SBS because of the freshness it had compared to the other schools I saw. As much as I love the West Campus, Southampton was a really good part of Stony Brok and provided opportunities for students who are getting ready for jobs beyond just doctors and lawyers. I was really getting ready to be a Coastal Environmental Studies major (a major that was just cut) at SBS…and now I’m a freshman BIO major. I know it’s a really hard switch, but SBU is a good school too…I just wish that Southampton would be given another chance :/

When Policies, procedures and even laws don’t apply.

It appears that Anthony still is missing the point. The campus President is supposed to “lead and teach by example.” The message Stanley has given us is that he will do it his way, consciously breaking the law and having total disregard for all internal controls and policies and procedures.

The issue is that this type of behavior should not be tolerated. In order to respect those in charge, they need to play by the rules. The administration refuses to be more transparent; leaving us to speculate that thay have their own agendas and that they are once again plotting to underhandedly do more damage.

The students, parents, faculty and surrounding communities deserve a say in matters such as Southampton and the administration needs to be held accountable for failing to communicate and follow protocol. If anyone is responsible for putting this campus under a microscope and generating bad press; that responsibility falls on the person who single handedly broke the law.

What is suing the school going to do? It will send a message that no one is above the law and if the law is broken you should take responsibility for your actions.

Did it ever enter Anthony’s mind that putting the Southampton students in the new dorms was a peace offering from the administration. It was the least they could do. The administration gave Anthony the boot, not the students from Southampton!

Place blame where it belongs!

Every student should be concerned over what adminstration did to Southampton students because what they did was rush to cut undergraduate academic programs and close a school without ever considering any of the many other alternatives. THAT alone should be a huge issue for every student. Stanley even admitted that he did not consider any other alternative before cutting the undergraduate college. The message is that undergraduate students are expendable. Any student who quietly sits on the sidelines without rising in protest over student programs being cut as the first choice, rather than the last resort, deserves to have it done to them instead.

Hey Anthony. Are you serious, man? Do you even hear how ridiculous you sound?

How would you feel if you were a science, engineering, or technology student that applied to attend SBU & was currently attending SBU, and Stanley suddenly told you tomorrow that he is moving your major to the Visual & Performing Arts SUNY at Purchase? What does that college have to do with what you are studying as a science major? How would you feel if he told you that your “programs” will still be the same, they just will no longer contain whatever special program component they had that made them superior over all other science, engineering, or technology colleges? The main thing that you went to SBU specifically for & was the reason you turned down scholarships from other colleges would no longer exist, but hey, you’ll be a more well-rounded student if you take a drama major instead. Sounds ridiculous, no?

Well, thats what you’re saying & that’s what Stanley did to Southamptons students when he “transferred” their social and environmental humanities programs to your science/research center and eliminated the experiential learning component that made those programs stand out above all other environmental colleges.

One more thing: who are you to tell any other student what major they should take? Where do you get off telling anyone what is good for them and which campus is better for them? SBU did not fit with what these students were looking for — just like the visual arts college at SUNY Purchase does not fit what you were looking for. If it did, you would have chosen to enroll there in the first place. Southampton’s students have a right to the education that was promised to them, that they were recruited for, & that they signed up for. It’s not available at the main campus.

If youre so embarrassed by them, tell Stanley to send them back where they belong. Then maybe you can get a room in the dorm they vacate – they’ll be happy to turn it over to you. They never asked for it in the first place.

WHY! Seriously?
You were brought to the main campus, you were given priority housing, you now have access to more materials and more professors and grad students. What is suing the school gong to do for you? Its distracting the administrators from the real issues here, it’s a burden financially, and its embarrassing for the rest of us who go here.
Awwwwww they no longer offer deep sea cod ecology as a major? GOOD, you’re an undergraduate and shouldn’t be that specialized anyway. This is a liberal arts and sciences college and you’ll be better prepared for the job market and actual practice taking a BIO major anyway.
Im sorry, if you feel this place isn home, but why not instead of complaining and segregating yourselves from the other students here, try bringing that feeling of college community to west campus? Of course you’re met with hostility, every day we have to hear about how you were short handed.Try and remember we’re the ones who got booted form the new building we all had to deal with being constructed, or the higher competition to get classes we need to graduate.
Get over it, or transfer, what else do you want? They didn’t kick you out when they closed SH, they just moved you to a better established and more developed campus. I fail to see how thats an issue.